Saturday, 30 November 2013

Les Paul Florentine: Finalizing Quilted Maple Colour

Today I put the finishing touches on the dye job for the quilted maple guitar top of the Les Paul Florentine. I used two colours in the end as part of the job - a 100% Colortone Cherry, and a 90% Cherry + 10% Blue 'Wine-Red' mix. The Cherry was wiped on first as the 'base' colour for all the non-figured parts of the grain. The wine-red mix was wiped on next to highlight the more figured parts of the quilting.

I have used this technique before in my other dye jobs and it seems to work well. What happens is that the base colour settles into the wood where there is no figure. These wood fibres remain saturated with stain, whilst the figured parts of the grain soak in the dye and are ready for more. When the second colour is applied (usually a more concentrated solution of the first) it is wiped lightly across the surface and is taken up by the figure only. Of course this only happens whilst the first pass is still wet. If you take too long, or do too many passes with the more concentrated colour then the whole surface slowly begins to darken. 

I certainly can't take any credit for this method of applying dye to figured maple. I learned about it from this youtube video from Bill of Canadianbreed Guitars. It's a great video and a great technique - I recommend you check it out if dying guitars interests you.
 
Basically this is how I worked today, but after the initial pass with the darker shade I kept temporarily changing back to the 100% Cherry to touch up any areas that looked too purple. In the end I got the dark red I was looking for (or at least a close approximation of it).


I'm sure it could have been achieved with other colour mixes, but the Blue as darkening agent worked well enough for me in this case. The photo shows a little lighter and 'redder' than the colour is in real life, but it does show the figure standing out quite nicely. The next step will be 3 or 4 coats of Tru-Oil to really get into the grain and bring out the 'chatoyance' (oo la la) of the quilted figure.

Friday, 29 November 2013

Les Paul Florentine: Second Trace Dye Sanded Back

Today I sanded back the second trace dye with 360 grit paper and polished off with 400. Now that the dye is dry it is much lighter and the colour looks even more purple (pink even!) but it should darken up again when the Tru-Oil goes on.



The next step is to put the last dye coat on. It will be a more Cherry colour than the trace dye (the trace dye is 20% blue). I have not decided whether to use straight Cherry, or whether to mix in 10% Blue. It may well be that the trace dye will be enough to darken the Cherry enough. Hmm... needs some thought before I commit.

Thursday, 28 November 2013

Les Paul Florentine: Bring the Bling & Second Trace Dye

Well, I changed my mind again. My gold hardware arrived today from Guitar Fetish and it looks awesome. Seeing it on the guitar with the original trace dye, it seemed obvious to me that more colour was required for this build. As you can see, there's a 335 style Trapeze Tailpiece, a gold Tune-O-matic bridge and a pair of GFS Dream 180 humbuckers with gold pickup surrounds.



And so it was back to the idea of wine red. I mean how awesome will those gold doodads look on a field of dark red! Over 2 hours I slowly sanded off the original trace dye with 240 grit, paying close attention to those pesky glue spots. 2 whole pieces of sand paper, and a little bit of my sanity later, the job was done and I couldn't wait to get a second trace dye on there to see if my sanding was complete. Here's the result..


All the glue spots are gone (hooray!) and the wine red looks great. This is a darker shade created from 80% cherry red and 20% blue Colortone dyes from Stewmac. Next step is to sand down through the grades again - 360, 400 and 600 to get the surface ready for clear coats and to take a bit of the colour back off the top. The colour will be replaced with a slightly lighter shade (95% cherry, 5% blue). Hopefully this will let the figure pop as much as possible. I can't wait to see the red with the gold!

I still need to decide on a colour for the bottom part of the guitar. I was thinking to just leave it natural with a slight tint from the Tru-Oil that is to come. Hmm.. still not undecided. I may hit it with a slight Amber dye, or a mix of Amber and Red Mahogany or even Medium Brown. I might need to do a couple of experiements to see what they look like though..

Les Paul Florentine: First Trace Dye

Today I finished raising the grain and sanding to 360 grit on the Les Paul Florentine. Time for the first trace dye to identify any areas of glue or other issues that will ruin the final dye job. Currently, I have changed my mind about the colour - at the moment I'm considering an Amber finish with brown highlighted figure. I'm still undecided and may go back to my original plan of wine red. 

In light of this indecision, I did a trace dye with Red Mahogany Colortone dye. It's reddish brown so I still should be able to go either way when I change my mind again. To do a trace dye, firstly I wipe the whole face down with a wet rag to allow the dye to be taken up evenly. Then I move to the actual colour solution and wipe it on, quickly enough so that the wood doesn't dry out before the dye hits it. Before applying anything, I generally mask off any binding that may come into contact with the dye (as best I can). For this purpose I always use 3M 6mm vinyl tape. It's the only thing that keeps a nice edge and has any chance of keeping the dye out.

Thankfully, the operation was completed without incident/ Here's how she looks with the trace dye in place..


Surprisingly, there's still a crap-load of these spots to be dealt with. So many it's a little disappointing to tell you the truth. You can see where these pesky glue spots that have been highlighted by the trace:


God damn. I really sanded the life out of this thing! That glue must be in deep. On the positive side, there is some nice quilted figure in this maple top which should look great once the glue is dealt with. I think that Vintage Amber may well be the best choice here as wine red would definitely hide a lot of this beautiful figure.

Next step is to sand the top again, paying close attention to those areas sporting glue. When I think all the glue is gone, I'll hit it with another trace dye to find out. Fun times!

Wednesday, 27 November 2013

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Off With His Head!

With no question that the Vintage Amber headstock colour had to go, I decided to scrub it back to bare wood (just the face) and start applying Butterscotch Wudtone instead. With the decision made, all that was left to do was sand with 180 grit until all the colour was removed, then finish off with 240, 360 (plus grain raising) and finally 400 grits.


The Wudtone on the sides of the headstock remained unaffected, and didn't even twitch as the colour came off the top edges. This was a great relief I can tell you. I also managed to sand flat so that none of the colour was removed from the sides of the headstock at all.


The first coat of Wudtone went on thereafter (ever so carefully) and the transformation was well on its way. I am paranoid that I'll make a mess of the Butterscotch down the sides of the headstock, but I'm being as careful as I can be. Only time will tell if this step backwards has been worth it, but I already suspect that it has been. Even without 5 coats of Butterscotch, I like the new headstock sooo much better.

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Custom Headstock Decal

The custom headstock decal went on today without a hitch. The decal was bought from best-decals.com and is the same as for previous builds. When my current supply of decals is exhausted, I'm going to be sourcing them from a company here in Australia. Here it is out in the sun to get a better idea of the colour..


Now that I look at the headstock and neck, I think I went a bit heavy with the Vintage Amber Wudtone. I honestly think 2 coats would have been more than enough, not the 4 that it finished up with. Next time I think I'll try the Vintage Yellow. It doesn't look anywhere near as dark as the Amber. Oh well, you live and learn - I thought it looked awesome on the Stratocaster build, but Fender do that don't they - dye their headstocks the same colour as the neck and fret-board. Hopefully when the tuners and strings go on it won't look as bloody orange!

Postscript: 27/11/2013:
You know, this just isn't right. The more I look at the headstock with the Vintage Amber neck colour on it, the more I think that the colour is just wrong for this build. The neck colour is fine, but the face of the headstock just doesn't match the Butterscotch body.


Basically, it looks shithouse. So, I have 2 options. Firstly, get some black spray and spray the face of the headstock. Secondly, sand off the face of the headstock and apply Butterscotch to it. One way or another this headstock is going to change. Luckily I have a spare decal to hand!

Tuesday, 26 November 2013

Les Paul Florentine: Sanding & Raising the Grain

Got some sanding on the Florentine done today. Started with 180 on the sides and back to try to remove some of the original machining/sanding marks. Still not sure I got all the suckers - end grain really is a bitch.  Moved on to 240 and then finally 360. After one go round with 360 it was time to raise the grain with methylated spirits and then another pass with 360 to knock it down again.



On the front I began with 240 and then moved to 360. The grain was raised with methylated spirits here too, but I made sure that the sanding was much lighter - I really don't want to sand through the veneer! The result is pretty smooooth.

Now that I've sanded to 360, there is just 400 and 600 grits to go before the Colortone dye can be applied. For each grit I will repeat the grain raising procedure. I'm still not sure what colour combo to throw at this bad boy. My current thinking is a blue top, with a darker colour (blue, black, blue+black?) in the initial trace dyes to allow the quilted maple figure to pop as much as possible. For the sides and back the jury is still out. I'm not sure whether to go for wine red / mahogany or maybe even go for an almost natural colour - maybe just Tru-Oil to accentuate the grain. Whatever I do to the back and sides will also have to be done to the neck and headstock. Hmm decisions..

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Fourth Coat of Wudtone

Well the fourth coats of Butterscotch and Vintage Amber Wudtone went on today. That will be all for the headstock and neck - it is now ready for the decal and clear coats. The colour on the body is deepening slowly every day. It really isn't as golden as I expected, but it is looking nice all the same. I reckon 2 or 3 more coats will see it finished. Here is a look at it out in the sun to try and get an accurate representation of the colour.


Pretty nice all in all. Should look great with the tortoiseshell pick-guard.

Monday, 25 November 2013

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Third Coat of Wudtone

Yes, you guessed it - the third coat of Wudtone went on today. The neck is pretty well finished in terms of colour. Might give it a steel wooling and see if it needs any touch ups. The body still has a few coats to go.




As always, the lighting and the flash plays havoc with the colouring of the photos. The Vintage Amber does not look as red or as golden as the photo implies, nor does the Butterscotch look as yellow. Sooner or later I'll take a photo in the sunlight to try and get a more accurate representation of actual colour. Overall, I'm pretty happy with how it is shaping up.

Sunday, 24 November 2013

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Second Coat of Wudtone

After a thorough steel-wooling to smooth out the surface, the second coat of Wudtone was slapped on the body and neck. All in all, the body colour seems to be filling out nicely, and the Butterscotch is slowly becoming more of a golden hue. It's hard to see any difference in the photos, but believe me it's there! In about 5 more coats it should be looking really something.


The Vintage Amber neck finish is also looking good. I took a little extra time with the steel wool to even out the first coat of Amber - especially on the edges where it seems to gather and darken. The time was well spent - it's looking quite good now! Maybe only one more coat will be required on the neck and headstock before the decal can be applied and the clear coats can go on.

Saturday, 23 November 2013

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: First Coat of Wudtone

After preparing the surface, I was finally able to get the first coats of Wudtone onto this bad boy. I'm using Butterscotch for the body and Vintage Amber for the neck, both with high gloss clear coats. I added about a third of the bottle of White base-coat to the Butterscotch base-coat to lighten the colour a little, and to give me a little more finish to work with.

They both went on well, except for a few unfortunate patches of bog in the body that have now been highlighted rather starkly. Hmm.. I'm hoping they will disolve into the background as the colour deepens. Other than that I'm pretty happy.


Due to the Timbermate pore filling, the grain on this basswood body is standing out quite nicely. By the end of the process this will fade a little as I plan to put as many colour coats on as I possibly can, but hopefully it will still look nice.

The butterscotch colour is a little dull brown at the moment, but I'm hoping that the 'golden' colour will come to the fore as finish builds and the colour deepens. It could well be that my pore filling with Timbermate is affecting the colour. We'll have to wait and see!

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Preparing a Solid Body for Wudtone

Before adding Wudtone to my Les Paul Jnr, the wood surface must be prepared - and that means more than a few a few hours of sanding, sanding and (you guessed it) more sanding.


My standard preparation for solid body basswood guitars (without veneer or binding) is as follows:
  • A really good sand with 240 grit, taking special note of areas where there is glue (there shouldn't be much if there's no binding) and filler (bog). I usually go over the body at least three times as there is no worries about sand through and so on. What does 'go over 1 time' mean in this context? Well, I tend to sand in 'sessions'. Basically, in 1 session I keep sanding until I've had enough and walk away. This is a single 'session' and on average it consumes one regular piece of wet-and-dry, and just a little bit of my remaining sanity.
  • Move up to 360 grit sandpaper. I usually go over the body at least twice (2 sessions) with 360 grit.
  • Fill the grain pores with a slurry of Timbermate and water. Dilute the Timbermate until it is like runny custard and then brush it on with and against the grain. For basswood I usually use a 'Maple' colour. For mahogany I go with a darker 'Walnut' colour. It all depends how much you want the grain to stand out. If you love grain, then typically the darker the pore filler the better.
  •  Let the Timbermate dry completely.
  • Use 360 grit paper to sand down the Timbermate until it basically disappears from the surface of the timber. Don't worry, it's still there in the pores, but the obvious Timbermate colour is gone.
  • Switch to 400 grit paper. Give the body a light sand - not too much or you will undo all your good work with the Timbermate! The surface should be feeling very smooth by now.
  • Raise the grain of the wood using water in a damp cloth. Let the surface dry completely.
  • Sand the raised grain back down  with 400 grit paper.
This is my pre-Wudtone preparation for basswood bodies. For maple necks, I do all this, but without the pore filling step. This is as far as I go for Wudtone as more sanding makes it hard for the Wudtone to soak effectively into the surface.

Disclaimer: Many exponents of Wudtone strictly adhere to the mantra that you should only sand to 240 grit as preparation. Personally I find that sanding to 240 makes it almost impossible to achieve a high gloss finish. I've only completed one Wudtone project so far, so maybe time will out on this one. At the end of the day it is up to you!

For other finishing products, in particular Tru-Oil, it is important to sand down to at least 600 grit paper. When doing this, I repeat the last 3 steps (400 grit + grain raising) with 600 and each subsequent grit size. Typically, though it is only one more to 600 (to save my sanity more than anything else). I have read build diaries online where other builders continue to 800 an 1200 before dying and oiling. It is definitely the case that Tru-Oil finishes benefit greatly from finer sanding, as the smoother the surface is to begin with, the less wetsanding you'll have to do to get a nice smooth finish.

Friday, 22 November 2013

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Shaping the Headstock / Custom Truss Rod Cover

Time to shape the headstock on my Les Paul Jnr in readiness for its coat of Vintage Amber Wudtone. Gibson headstock templates are a little thin on the ground compared to Fender, but I did manage to find a template for a Les Paul here: http://www.australianlespaulforums.com/download/Headstock.pdf. The template didn't fit my headstock perfectly - neither in width or tuner hole positions - so I had to do a little fudging to work out how it should go.



As it is, I think I placed it a little low - too far down towards the tuners. My "Turner" logo may not have the whitespace it greatly deserves, but no point crying over spilled milk. The scroll work could also be a little better (those curves are damn hard to get even!) but it isn't too bad for my first attempt at a Gibson headstock design.


I also quickly knocked up a custom truss rod cover from the same 3-ply tortoiseshell that I used to fashion the pickguard. I think it really adds something, and really ties the room together nicely. Ha! Thanks Dude..

Thursday, 21 November 2013

Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Custom Pickguard

Today I created a custom Tortoiseshell pickguard for the Les Paul Jnr using a sheet of Uncut 3-ply Pickguard Material from Guitar Fetish. Trying to find a sheet of this stuff that doesn't require a second mortgage on my house was a real challenge, but GFS finally came through.

I used the original pickguard from the kit as a template. I traced around the original, and then cut close to the line using a cheap coping saw from Bunnings. This was nowhere near as easy as I expected. There must be a knack to using a coping saw well but I don't know it. After cutting, I used a rounded bastard file to clean and trim the edges back to the tracing line. The sides were then finished off with 240 grit sand paper.

After shaping, it was time to drill the holes. Again I used the original pickguard as a guide to hole placement. I went one step further than the original and actually counter-sunk the holes! Having no experience or skills in wood-working, I took a disproportionate amount of joy in both the process and the result of the countersinking. Stupid really given the final result wont be seen under the screw heads.



I am painfully aware that the new pickguard is 3-ply where the original pickguard was only 1-ply. I became aware of this fact when it came time to screw it to the body. Since the body is shaped (it isnt flat like a Telecaster), the pickguard has to ben d to follow the curves. The 3-ply material is resisting the bend and is standing up where it curves above the pickup. I am going to try and see whether this pickguard stuff is thermo-softening. If it is I may be able to heat it up to help bend it to the correct shape. If not, I may have to add another screw.

Anyway, apart from these little details, I think the result looks pretty fucking awesome if I don't say so myself. I can't wait to see how it looks with the butterscotch Wudtone underneath! I still would like to put a bevel around the edge. I'll probably use the bastard file to achieve this, but since the pickguard looks so good as it is, I'll have to find my confidence again to attempt it (and risk spoiling what I have so far!). Stay tuned.

Postscript 22/11/2013:
I actually went ahead and put a bevel around the edge of the pickguard, and I dont like it!! Damnation. Anyway, this meant that I had to go back and cut a whole new one again. Now I have 2 to choose from - with and without bevel.


Les Paul Jnr Double Cut: Unboxing and Mock Up

I've been looking forward to starting a Double Cutaway Les Paul Jnr kit for some time now. One of the simplest kits to finish, and yet with elegant lines that just speak to me. I received a Pitbull Guitars JR-1DC as a birthday present a week ago and couldn't wait to get the box open.


The kit fits together very easily and in no time I had the wrap-around bridge fitted, the single P90 pickup seated and the neck aligned. I always use the two E strings during this process to make sure that the neck angle produces correctly positioned strings down its entire length. It's also useful to get the placement of the pickup correct so that the pole pieces are as close to directly under the strings as possible.


And that's it for the mock-up really. The one thing I haven't bothered to do is the pickguard. This is because I am planning to make my own pickguard in tortoiseshell using the original black one as a template.  Should look killer with the planned butterscotch Wudtone - quite a close match to the 'TV Yellow' that many of the original LP Jnrs sport from Gibson.


Next I'll be shaping the headstock with a traditional Les Paul design, and then it's on to sanding, pore filling and grain raising. I'll be sanding to 240, 360 and 400 grits, and pore filling using a slurry of Timbermate after the first pass with 360 grit. I'll take the excess Timbermate off with 360 grit before moving on to 400. I'll raise the grain with water several times between subsequent passes at 400 grit to make sure the surface is nice and smooth prior to applying the Wudtone. Stay tuned for more double-cut goodness!

Wednesday, 20 November 2013

Jackson-Style Flying V: Poly and Shielding

The Jackson-Style Flying V was my first kit; a project that was not only a learning experience, and one that produced a great guitar, but which cemented new love for guitar building. All those months ago, in those naive early days of my burgeoning new hobby, my knowledge on the subjects of finishing, electronics, and many other aspects of the luthier's craft was sadly wanting. Consequently, there are a few things about the build that, with hindsight, I could have done a good deal better. Whilst the guitar came out remarkably well given my lack of knowledge and wood working skills, there were 3 key areas in which the guitar could have been improved.

The first was in the finish itself. I used Behlen vinyl sealer and nitro lacquer to apply clear coats over the automotive acrylic colour coats. Whilst this is not in and of itself a bad idea, my execution was found wanting. The clear coats were very thin and after sanding through a couple of times, I was too timid at the end of the day to polish them properly to give the mirror finish the paint job deserved.

Secondly, although the electrics were all professionally wired and soldered (I can at least wield a soldering iron with some confidence) the wiring was not properly grounded to the bridge and there was no shielding at all in any of the cavities. In my naivety I tried to solder the ground wire to a bridge post (which I eventually suceeded in doing) but the act of hammering in the post cut the wire. As far as shielding was concerned, I didnt even realize such a thing was done, let alone how important it was for noise elimination. Despite the noise introduced by the combination of these two factors, the Entwistle Dark Star pickups really sounded excellent. But alas the noise was there buzzing away in the quiet moments.

Lastly, although the action straight out of the box was impressively low and comfortable, I did not perform a fret level and re-crown on the neck. In addition, the neck was badly in need of a shim as the tune-o-matic bridge had already been reduced to its lowest setting leaving no room for fine tuning.

And so, desiring one of my beloved guitars to play and sound even better, I thought it high time that the Jackson-style V went back on the bench and receive the finishing touches that it so richly deserved.

First came the poly. Using minwax wipe-on poly, I applied around 15 coats, wet sanding every 2 coats with incrementally decreasing grit sizes: 1200, 1500 and 2000. The body now has a nice thick build up of clear on it, and the sparkle in the metallic auto paint is dazzling. After the wet sanding I went on to the polishing compounds, with Stewmac Medium, Fine and Swirl Remover called in to apply the final touches. The V now has a lovely mirror finish!


Second came the shielding. I used copper foil with conductive adhesive to coat both the pickup and control cavities. Even the plastic control cavity cover got the treatment (this is important if you want to create a complete Faraday cage around the controls). The shielding in each cavity was soldered to the next using joining wires, and the wire from the bridge post was correctly inserted (with vertically hanging bare wires this time) and the connection duly tested with a multi-meter.


The next step for this bad boy will be the re-wiring of the pickups and controls, as I had to completely un-solder all the components to remove them for shielding. After the body has been completely re-assembled and re-wired, the frets can be levelled and this baby can sing again. Stay tuned for the next instalment! I may even make a bone nut if I'm feeling particularly enthusiastic. Yes, I think I will. That's something else I've had experience with since moving on to other building projects and the V could definitely benefit from it.

Monday, 18 November 2013

Les Paul Florentine - Unboxing

I started a new build today, with the arrival of a Pitbull Guitars ES-2T set neck kit as an awesomely unexpected (and much appreciated!) birthday present. Un-boxing was commenced in haste, and the unassuming cardboard box divested its awesome contents.


The kit is a semi-hollow model with dual f-holes and a nice quilted maple cap. The headstock is pre-shaped and looks pretty schmick, and the rosewood fretboard has nice trapezoidal MOP inlays. The cap and the f-holes are both surrounded in neat white binding, and both the bridge and stop bar have been left undrilled just in case a trapeze tailpiece and floating bridge are desired. Hmm, that's not a bad idea at all!



 So what do I have planned for this bad boy? Well, it's an awesome looking kit and I want to make the most of it - a bit of extra-special treatment. I am thinking a wine-red Colortone dye with black grain highlighting and sexy gold hardware. I'm not too fond of the twirly-whirly tailpiece that came with the kit, so in addition to a gold upgrade I have dialed it back and ordered a new 335 style trapeze in gold. I think I will forego the floating bridge in favour of a fixed ABR-1 tuno-matic bridge just to make re-stringing easier. With the body having the solid central block (like all semi-hollow bodies) the sustain will benefit greatly from having a fixed bridge anyway.


In terms of pickups, I am coveting a pair of GFS Dream 180s in Gold and Pearl (pictured above), surrounded by gold plated brass humbucker surrounds and delivered through a 50s vintage wiring harness. Man do these pickups sound awesome - have a listen:


Should look vintage-fucking-awesome against the wine red body, especially with the gold surrounds. Some gold tuners (naturally) will top the whole thing off - I'm thinking Wilkinson EZI-lock. I mean how awesome does all that sound? I know! I can't wait to get started.

First step - fitting the set neck with a bit of Titebond, doing a fret level and re-crown and then a mock-up assembly to make sure all the hardware fits. I have to wait for my new parts to arrive, so maybe I'll slip in a little sanding as well before the mock-up. Stay tuned!

Thursday, 14 November 2013

Stone Roses Tribute: Fools Gold?

For many years I have dreamed of creating a Stone Roses guitar. Well known for their signature look created by artist/guitarist John Squire and based on the work of Jackson Pollock, The Roses painted guitars, drums and even Ian Brown's shirts in a multicoloured miasma of paint splattered goodness. Apart from maybe Noel Gallagher's Union Jack Epiphone, there's none more iconic in my mind than Squire's unique creations.


Going for a look somewhere between Mani's Rickenbacker bass and Squire's Gibson 335, the Rickenbacker inspired RC-1 kit from Pitbull Guitars seemed the logical choice for a build. And now, funds having been found, said kit is finally gracing the Fires Creek Guitars man cave here in Holgate.


Unfortunately, the actual dry assembly and body preparation won't start until the new year. However, in the meantime I have been playing with various Pollock and Squire inspired designs, trying to find a colour scheme and application technique that I'm happy with. To be quite honest with you, it isn't as easy as it looks to find colours that look nice together and that are balanced nicely on the canvas - fate and gravity are a harsh mistress!

Anyway, after a few false starts my latest test run has made it to completion without seeing the back end of the primer again. What do you think?


To be honest I'm reasonably happy with this attempt. It's pretty bloody close to the colours that John Squire used on Mani's Pollock'd Rickenbacker and his own 335 pictured in the bottom left band photo. I feel confident now to attempt the paint job. I'm still not sure that it will be all that I hope. Am I just chasing Fools Gold with this one? Well, fuck it. There's only one way to find out!